Discussion:
[Rock-dev] Rock development discussions
Jakob Schwendner
2014-09-19 08:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Just my two cents: Doing Frameworks means doing things right. Allowing
many persons to profit from the work of smaller subgroup. And this takes
time... Quick-Hacks have no place in a Framework...
I very much agree with that. Thanks for taking a step back here.

I have a feeling we need to improve the way we discuss our development of
Rock.

A few ideas for this:
* do a video chat once a month. I would start with anyone who wants to
participate. When we reach number over the technology limit we could always
limit later to core development team.
* Record decisions and discussions. The wiki is probably the best way for
now. I kind of liked the loomio tool, though.
* Improve ML communication. Really stick to what we agreed on: discuss
bigger changes in the ML. If in doubt how big the change is, discuss.
* Your opinion REALLY is important. If you have one, join the discussion.
Even if it's just an agree/disagree. I know sometimes it's difficult to join
into a heated discussion. Not heating them too much could be a way here.
Conciseness on the discussion could also help.

Let me know what you think, or if you have other ideas on how to improve.

Cheers,

Jakob
Martin Zenzes
2014-09-22 08:46:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jakob Schwendner
I have a feeling we need to improve the way we discuss our development of
Rock.
"development?" Or rather "maintenance"?
Post by Jakob Schwendner
* do a video chat once a month. I would start with anyone who wants to
participate. When we reach number over the technology limit we could always
limit later to core development team.
+1

Maybe a video format where every guy sits alone in front of his own
computer and talks to the group? This would equalize the perceived
barrier between each participant, no matter how much physical distance
there is between us.

What about Google hangout? Though I only know this tool as a Viewer, not
as a User... To access the informations we could create links into
specific positions inside the masses of video streams. Not very private,
though.
Post by Jakob Schwendner
* Record decisions and discussions. The wiki is probably the best way for
now. I kind of liked the loomio tool, though.
loomio... Looks like a full-featured "community council", suitable for
the formal decisions? We also need to spread and collect the "implicit
documentation" about the internals of the framework.
Post by Jakob Schwendner
* Improve ML communication. Really stick to what we agreed on: discuss
bigger changes in the ML. If in doubt how big the change is, discuss.
* Your opinion REALLY is important. If you have one, join the discussion.
Even if it's just an agree/disagree. I know sometimes it's difficult to join
into a heated discussion. Not heating them too much could be a way here.
Conciseness on the discussion could also help.
There is this latent fear of saying or doing something "inappropriate"?
An impression I get from Users talking about Rock: They have a
"something breaks my compilation" -- but don't care enough to bitch
around somewhere public. They just ask their co-worker or do a "autoproj
rebuild". But this is the worst effect a framework can have: standing in
the way, causing extra work or extra thoughts.

Greetings
Martin
--
M.Sc. Martin Zenzes
Space Robotics

Hauptgesch?ftsstelle Standort Bremen:
DFKI GmbH
Robotics Innovation Center
Robert-Hooke-Stra?e 5
28359 Bremen, Germany

Phone: +49 (0) 421 178 45 - 6658
Fax: +49 (0) 421 178 45 - 4150
E-Mail: martin.zenzes at dfki.de

Weitere Informationen: http://www.dfki.de/robotik
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz GmbH
Firmensitz: Trippstadter Stra?e 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster
(Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973
Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Joyeux
2014-09-23 00:44:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Martin Zenzes
Post by Jakob Schwendner
I have a feeling we need to improve the way we discuss our development of
Rock "development?" Or rather "maintenance"?
* do a video chat once a month. I would start with anyone who wants to
participate. When we reach number over the technology limit we could always
limit later to core development team.
+1
Maybe a video format where every guy sits alone in front of his own
computer and talks to the group? This would equalize the perceived
barrier between each participant, no matter how much physical distance
there is between us.
+1 to "separate videos" (no more than 2 persons per screen). Meetings
where one person is outside and the rest in the same room is just
useless for the person that is not in the room. As soon as the
"in-room people" start talking to each other (which happens quite
naturally very often), the lone guy just does not understand what is
going on.
Post by Martin Zenzes
What about Google hangout? Though I only know this tool as a Viewer, not
as a User... To access the informations we could create links into
specific positions inside the masses of video streams. Not very private,
though.
I like the hangouts suggestion. Since the goal is to be public,
there's no issue with privacy to me ...
Post by Martin Zenzes
Post by Jakob Schwendner
* Record decisions and discussions. The wiki is probably the best way for
now. I kind of liked the loomio tool, though.
loomio... Looks like a full-featured "community council", suitable for
the formal decisions? We also need to spread and collect the "implicit
documentation" about the internals of the framework.
I don't think we're enough people so that adding yet-another-website
makes sense, honestly. We're what, 5 active developers (tops !) ? We
should probably vote on that one though ...;-)
Post by Martin Zenzes
They just ask their co-worker or do a "autoproj rebuild".
The knowledgeable co-workers will need to have the discipline to
either fix the problem (on the machines *and* in Rock) or redirect
them to rock-users instead of answering questions. What one has to
stress there is that it is a much better solution even for them,
because "the knowledgeable co-worker" is not always around while there
is often someone reading rock-users.

Sylvain
Raul Dominguez
2014-09-23 08:31:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sylvain Joyeux
Post by Martin Zenzes
Post by Jakob Schwendner
I have a feeling we need to improve the way we discuss our development of
Rock "development?" Or rather "maintenance"?
* do a video chat once a month. I would start with anyone who wants to
participate. When we reach number over the technology limit we could always
limit later to core development team.
+1
Maybe a video format where every guy sits alone in front of his own
computer and talks to the group? This would equalize the perceived
barrier between each participant, no matter how much physical distance
there is between us.
+1 to "separate videos" (no more than 2 persons per screen). Meetings
where one person is outside and the rest in the same room is just
useless for the person that is not in the room. As soon as the
"in-room people" start talking to each other (which happens quite
naturally very often), the lone guy just does not understand what is
going on.
+1. Though I don't consider myself a core developer/maintainer (yet) I
would like to keep myself up-to-date on the rock framework development
discussions.
Post by Sylvain Joyeux
Post by Martin Zenzes
What about Google hangout? Though I only know this tool as a Viewer, not
as a User... To access the informations we could create links into
specific positions inside the masses of video streams. Not very private,
though.
I like the hangouts suggestion. Since the goal is to be public,
there's no issue with privacy to me ...
+1
Post by Sylvain Joyeux
Post by Martin Zenzes
Post by Jakob Schwendner
* Record decisions and discussions. The wiki is probably the best way for
now. I kind of liked the loomio tool, though.
loomio... Looks like a full-featured "community council", suitable for
the formal decisions? We also need to spread and collect the "implicit
documentation" about the internals of the framework.
I don't think we're enough people so that adding yet-another-website
makes sense, honestly. We're what, 5 active developers (tops !) ? We
should probably vote on that one though ...;-)
Post by Martin Zenzes
They just ask their co-worker or do a "autoproj rebuild".
The knowledgeable co-workers will need to have the discipline to
either fix the problem (on the machines *and* in Rock) or redirect
them to rock-users instead of answering questions. What one has to
stress there is that it is a much better solution even for them,
because "the knowledgeable co-worker" is not always around while there
is often someone reading rock-users.
Sylvain
_______________________________________________
Rock-dev mailing list
Rock-dev at dfki.de
http://www.dfki.de/mailman/cgi-bin/listinfo/rock-dev
Ra?l
--
Ra?l Dom?nguez (M.Sc.)
Space Robotics

Besuchsadresse der Nebengesch?ftsstelle:
DFKI GmbH
Robotics Innovation Center
Robert-Hooke-Stra?e 5
28359 Bremen, Germany

Postadresse der Hauptgesch?ftsstelle Standort Bremen:
DFKI GmbH
Robotics Innovation Center
Robert-Hooke-Stra?e 1
28359 Bremen, Germany

Tel.: +49 421 178 45-6617
Zentrale: +49 421 178 45-0
Fax: +49 421 178 45-4150 (Faxe bitte namentlich kennzeichnen)
E-Mail: raul.dominguez at dfki.de

Weitere Informationen: http://www.dfki.de/robotik
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz GmbH
Firmensitz: Trippstadter Stra?e 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster
(Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973
Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3
Martin Zenzes
2014-09-23 14:37:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sylvain Joyeux
Post by Martin Zenzes
What about Google hangout? Though I only know this tool as a Viewer, not
as a User... To access the informations we could create links into
specific positions inside the masses of video streams. Not very private,
though.
I like the hangouts suggestion. Since the goal is to be public,
there's no issue with privacy to me ...
This would leave mosinv images of humas stored on the internet
forever... Not everyone finds that reassuring... But there are worse
things to do.

Anybody got experience with Google Hangout as a user? How is the process?
Post by Sylvain Joyeux
Post by Martin Zenzes
Post by Jakob Schwendner
* Record decisions and discussions. The wiki is probably the best way for
now. I kind of liked the loomio tool, though.
loomio... Looks like a full-featured "community council", suitable for
the formal decisions? We also need to spread and collect the "implicit
documentation" about the internals of the framework.
I don't think we're enough people so that adding yet-another-website
makes sense, honestly. We're what, 5 active developers (tops !) ? We
should probably vote on that one though ...;-)
Post by Martin Zenzes
They just ask their co-worker or do a "autoproj rebuild".
The knowledgeable co-workers will need to have the discipline to
either fix the problem (on the machines *and* in Rock)...
Exactly. And for the cherries on top: Not only fix, but also understand
its ramifications.
Post by Sylvain Joyeux
...or redirect them to rock-users instead of answering questions. What one has to
stress there is that it is a much better solution even for them,
because "the knowledgeable co-worker" is not always around while there
is often someone reading rock-users.
Yeah, sounds reasonable. And if people where always reasonable we would
live in a very much nicer place... ;-)
--
M.Sc. Martin Zenzes
Space Robotics

Hauptgesch?ftsstelle Standort Bremen:
DFKI GmbH
Robotics Innovation Center
Robert-Hooke-Stra?e 5
28359 Bremen, Germany

Phone: +49 (0) 421 178 45 - 6658
Fax: +49 (0) 421 178 45 - 4150
E-Mail: martin.zenzes at dfki.de

Weitere Informationen: http://www.dfki.de/robotik
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Deutsches Forschungszentrum fuer Kuenstliche Intelligenz GmbH
Firmensitz: Trippstadter Stra?e 122, D-67663 Kaiserslautern
Geschaeftsfuehrung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster
(Vorsitzender) Dr. Walter Olthoff
Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Kaiserslautern (HRB 2313)
USt-Id.Nr.: DE 148646973
Steuernummer: 19/673/0060/3
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jakob Schwendner
2014-09-23 14:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sylvain Joyeux
Post by Martin Zenzes
What about Google hangout? Though I only know this tool as a Viewer,
not as a User... To access the informations we could create links
into specific positions inside the masses of video streams. Not very
private, though.
I like the hangouts suggestion. Since the goal is to be public,
there's no issue with privacy to me ...
This would leave mosinv images of humas stored on the internet forever...
Not everyone finds that reassuring... But there are worse things to do.
Anybody got experience with Google Hangout as a user? How is the process?
We have this alternative of using the dfn video conference feature. Its flash based, and doesn?t require an account. Ive used it with 8 people (I guess more are possible). Elmar is looking into it to provide a link. Whats left is to find date.

Cheers,

Jakob

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